eCircle Mutimedia GmbH - Spams by running the unconfirmed mailing lists (they do it for the last year at least)! ecircle-ag.com, ecircle.de, domeus.com, domeus.es, domeus.fr, thefound.ch, [62.67.54.128 - 62.67.54.191], [62.153.79.224 - 62.153.79.255], [212.162.50.0 - 212.162.50.63], [212.185.110.8 - 212.185.110.15], [213.68.73.224 - 213.68.73.255], [213.186.38.57]: Access denied! === Spamming evidence from the half-year ago === http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=no.email-2908021149370001%40slip2.chem.utoronto.ca From: no.email@domain.invalid (David Stone) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Interesting RIPE entry for eCircle/Domeus Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:49:37 -0400 Organization: University of Toronto - Chemistry Lines: 59 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: slip2.chem.utoronto.ca X-Trace: news1.chem.utoronto.ca 1030635087 16184 142.150.224.87 (29 Aug 2002 15:31:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chem.utoronto.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 2002 15:31:27 GMT Ran across the following while checking out a spam promoting the "Geneva Forum 2002". Makes you wonder why Patrick left... Oh, and it looks like they're hosted by eu.level3.net - are they on the same (negative) clue-level as their US counterparts? news.thefound.ch/domeus.com/ecircle seem to be running yet another non-confirmed subscription list (see Reply-To in spam headers below). Partial RIPE entry for 62.67.54.128 - 62.67.54.191 ECIRCLEMULTIMEDIA-DE person: Patrick Raithofer address: ParaLab Mind&Intelligence Research address: Pienzenauerstr. 6 address: 81679 M?nchen address: Germany phone: +49-1212-5-109-13-582 fax-no: +49-1212-5-109-13-582 e-mail: info@paralab.de nic-hdl: PR3627-RIPE notify: info@paralab.de mnt-by: viact-mnt remarks: I left eCircle AG. Please do not contact me regarding remarks: spam complaints or similar things for their nets or domains. remarks: You can contact eCircle at hostmaster@ecircle.de. Thanks. changed: ripe-dbm-update@online-now.de 20000120 changed: info@paralab.de 20020725 source: RIPE host news.thefound.ch news.thefound.ch has address 62.67.54.132 Return-Path: Received: from aps59.muc.domeus.com (aps59.muc.domeus.com [62.67.54.159]) by zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7TEc7B03849 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:38:07 -0400 Received: from aps59 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aps59.muc.domeus.com (ecMessenger 1.7/2.0) with ESMTP id 47DDC347897 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:37:56 +0200 (MEST) Subject: bienvenue au groupe GENEVA FORUM 2002 : To do business while serving Mankind From: admin@news.thefound.ch Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:37:13 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: contact.gf.general-unsubscribe@news.thefound.ch X-domeus-cid: 40001026 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: To:zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz X-domeus-email:zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz id g7TEc7B03849 -- dstone+ng at chem dot toronto dot edu Absolutely NO advertising, newsletters or solicitations! "When you hear the toilet flush and the words "Uh-oh", it's too late." === More spam comping from eCircle === Return-Path: Received: from aps41.muc.domeus.com (aps41.muc.domeus.com [62.67.54.141]) by mail.tursiops.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h13AV4413177 for <###@###.org>; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 03:31:06 -0700 Received: from aps41 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aps41.muc.domeus.com (ecMessenger 2.1) with ESMTP id 47207C8822 for <###@###.org>; Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:31:02 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <1438554604.1044268262290.JavaMail.ecm0@aps41> From: Electronic Arts Subject: Command & Conquer Generals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-domeus-image-mode: none X-domeus-mid: ######## X-domeus-cid: ######## Reply-To: eagenerals-hol-reply@lawton.ecircle-ag.com To: ###@###.org X-domeus-email: ###@###.org Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 11:31:02 +0100 (MET) Status: RO

embedded movie


Generaal

"Er zit een wereldwijd conflict aan te komen. Wie zal er verrijzen en de macht in handen nemen? Iemand met een strategisch brein en buitengewone leiderschapskwaliteiten. Iemand die zich net zo thuisvoelt in de commandopost als aan het front. Iemand met ijswater in z'n aderen.

Drie vijandige legers zitten vast in een conflict. Hun strijdkrachten kunnen zich niet mobiliseren zonder dat ze orders krijgen en ze hebben een sterke leider nodig! Voldoe jij aan de gestelde eisen? Om de impasse te doorbreken moet je een stap vooruit zetten en het commando aanvaarden over de technologisch geavanceerde troepen van de USA, de gigantische troepenmacht van het Chinese leger of het listige GLA.

Iedere zijde heeft zijn eigen unieke wapens, manschappen, methodes, gevechtstechnieken en doelstellingen. Het is van levensbelang om de goede zijde te kiezen.

Als jij denkt dat je over de benodigde leiderschapskwaliteiten beschikt, nodigen we je uit om de volgende vragen te beantwoorden en op die manier te ontdekken welk leger je zou moeten gaan aanvoeren..."

Een paar van je manschappen zitten opgesloten en staan tegenover een vijandelijke overmacht. Wat doe je?
Je stuurt je beste elite-eenheid om ze er levend uit te halen

Je vuurt een raket af op de betreffende locatie waarbij je je eigen manschappen en zoveel mogelijk vijanden doodt, en roept dan dat het de schuld van de tegenpartij was

Je stuurt er een volledig battaljon op af en maakt er een klinkende overwinning van


Twee van je piloten zijn gevangengenomen. Wat doe je?
Je laat ze achter in de wetenschap dat ze voor een goed doel vechten en dat ze hun kameraden niet zullen verraden

Bij het vallen van de duisternis begin je aan een geheime missie om ze te bevrijden

Je denkt er niet verder over na. Ze hebben toch zelfmoordpillen?


Je vermoedt dat een aantal burgers de vijand helpt. Wat doe je?
Je blaast hun huizen op

Je pakt ze op voor ondervraging

Je gebruikt je spionagesatellieten om bewijsmateriaal te verzamelen


De inlichtingendienst geeft aan dat er een grote vijandelijke troepenmacht opgebouwd wordt en dat er een aanval dreigt. Wat doe je?
Je voert alvast een luchtaanval uit

Je gebruikt je gigantische tunnelnetwerk om de vijand te omsingelen

Je bestormt hun stellingen met veel machtsvertoon


Je moet een vijandelijke basis infiltreren. Wat doe je?
Je kaapt een vijandelijk konvooi en dringt ongezien de basis binnen

Je stuurt er in het donker een groep commando's op af

Je maakt gebruik van je gigantische troepenmacht om de vijand onder de voet te lopen










Uitschrijven

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Privacybeleid | Dienstvoorwaarden


=== And another spam from the same spammer === Return-Path: Received: from aps51.muc.domeus.com (aps51.muc.domeus.com [62.67.54.151]) by mail.tursiops.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1EGJD420441 for <###@###.org>; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:19:18 -0700 Received: from aps51 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aps51.muc.domeus.com (ecMessenger 2.1) with ESMTP id A6AEEBF6EA for <###@###.org>; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:18:59 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <1902376653.1045239539681.JavaMail.ecm1@aps51> From: Electronic Arts Subject: Command & Conquer Generals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-domeus-image-mode: none X-domeus-mid: ######## X-domeus-cid: ######## Reply-To: eagenerals-hol-reply@lawton.ecircle-ag.com To: ###@###.org X-domeus-email: ###@###.org Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:18:59 +0100 (MET) Status:





Gefeliciteerd, generaal

Drie legers, ieder met een eigen hightech-arsenaal, staan op het punt om hun ongekende vuurkracht te ontketenen. Onder de verkeerde leiding
zou dit tot onvoorstelbare vernietiging kunnen leiden. Generaal, we hebben iemand van jouw kaliber nodig om de leiding te nemen. De regering heeft toestemming gegeven om je te voorzien van de allernieuwste technologieën.

Om ervoor te zorgen dat je een goed overzicht behoudt, kun je met de nieuwste generatie graphics alle slagvelden van Alaska tot Wladiwostok in 3D bekijken. Je kunt je eigen bases ontwerpen en bouwen, installaties beheren, wapenvoorraden aanleggen en hoogopgeleid personeel rekruteren. Je zult brandende barricades, spectaculaire wapeneffecten, verwoeste gebouwen en zelfs vernielde landschappen tegenkomen.

Sommige wapens in je arsenaal ken je al, maar er zijn ook een paar akelige verassingen - voor de vijand. Je hebt een gigantisch arsenaal toegewezen gekregen, zonder te letten op wat voor defensiebudget dan ook. Verder is er nog een volledige Map Editor, waarmee je de slagvelden naar je eigen specificaties kunt aanpassen. Jij bepaalt het landschap, dus je vecht altijd op bekend terrein!

In tegenstelling tot eerdere gevechten, heb je de mogelijkheid om gebruik te maken van verschillende tactieken, die allemaal in real-time uitgevoerd worden. Dit geldt voor zowel luchtgevechten, gevechten binnen steden, guerrilla-aanvallen als uitgebreide bombardementen. Hoe sterker je als aanvoerder bent, des te meer middelen je tot je beschikking hebt.

Jij bent de baas.
 
Kies het leger waarmee je wilt vechten. Je neemt het op tegen de computer

Klik op een kaart en gebruik al je vaardigheden en ervaring die je in de strijd hebt opgedaan om de meest geschikte eigenschap te kiezen. Als jouw keuze de sterkste is, heb je gewonnen

Het conflict gaat door totdat één partij alle kaarten heeft gewonnen

 



Meer informatie over Command & Conquer™ Generals






Uitschrijven

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Privacybeleid | Dienstvoorwaarden


=== Other admins report eCircle spamming non-existant mailboxes === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu !postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: rfg@monkeys.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: 16 Feb 2003 02:29:53 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.60.157.246 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1045391393 5429 127.0.0.1 (16 Feb 2003 10:29:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2003 10:29:53 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1922892 I already blocked domus.com here awhile ago. Caught them spamming non-existant addresses here. typical. === Typo correction === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu !postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: rfg@monkeys.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: 16 Feb 2003 02:32:33 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.60.157.246 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1045391553 5589 127.0.0.1 (16 Feb 2003 10:32:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2003 10:32:33 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1922893 I wrote: >I already blocked domus.com here awhile ago. SORRY! FAT FINGERS! Make that "domeus.com" NOT "domus.com". (Now I'll probably get sued by whoever owns "domus.com"! Sheesh!) === Other reports === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!surfnet.nl!rug.nl !erik.selwerd.nl!nobody From: erik@flits102-126.flits.rug.nl (Erik Warmelink) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 05:18:53 +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: flits102-126.flits.rug.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: info.service.rug.nl 1045369701 24264 129.125.102.126 (16 Feb 2003 04:28:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@rug.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 04:28:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1922788 In article , Dolphin writes: > Today a friend of mine asked me if I've heard something about ecircle-ag > cause they were spamming him already for the second time in a week. I've > looked on NANA*, and found that they look damn close to what the known > PMG spammers were doing. The same "something-###-###-###@bounce..." Return- > Path and spammer-reply@some-eCircle.domain Reply-To addresses, the same > huge HTML spams with "uid=/mid=" tracking data in URLs and unsubscribe link > at the bottom. I went a bit through the NANA* history, and can see them > spamming that way at least a half-year ago: > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=no.email-2908021149370001%40slip2.chem.ut oronto.ca > > And their hosts are... Level3-Europe and UUNET-Europe, among others. See Unanswered (as could be expected) and they didn't even listwash: | Feb 15 05:14:32 flits102-126 sendmail[14562]: FAA14562: + ruleset=check_rcpt, arg1=, + relay=aps60.muc.domeus.com [62.67.54.160], reject=550 + ... Blocked, 62.67.54.160 level3 spams, + try xbl@selwerd.nl, see http://selwerd.cx/xbl/ I still wonder how they got permission from zenra@pino.selwerd.cx, pino.selwerd.cx hasn't accepted email for a long time. In short, they spam and employ professional liars. Parts of UUNET-Europa still employ people with a (IMHO) misguided loyalty to the former Unix-usergroup networks which were borged. If HQ has lost its grip since the demise of Bernard Ebbers, they might help (I would like to know if they do, I have all of spewspewnet listed). -- erik@selwerd.nl === eCircle doesn't process bounces === Path: uni-berlin.de!61.11.78.90!not-for-mail From: suresh@hserus.net (Suresh Ramasubramanian) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: 16 Feb 2003 03:17:47 GMT Organization: -ENOENT Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.11.78.90 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1045365467 47747378 61.11.78.90 (16 [40468]) X-Orig-X-Trace: quirk.hserus.net 1045365436 2440 127.0.0.1 (1 988 2003.02.16 03:17:15) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Win32) Hamster-Pg/1.8 Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1922759 (Morely Dotes) Fri, 14 Feb 2003 at 23:34 GMT [news.admin.net-abuse.email]: > Solution: Bounce *ANYTHING* that contains "bounce" in either the > envelope-from, from, to, or return-path headers. Morely... do read about VERP first. Lots of lists - big lists, legit lists - use VERP to accept bounces and parse them to weed out bouncing users. Me, I'm the sort of guy who hates people who don't process their bounces. eCircle / Domeus don't do any bounce processing though, for all their VERP return paths. So I block them, myself ... but suggesting that people block on "bounce-" is dumb. srs === More on eCircle spamming === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.freenet.de !not-for-mail Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? From: Harald Hein References: Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Date: 14 Feb 2003 21:46:06 GMT Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.7.161.45 X-Trace: 1045259166 news.freenet.de 14222 213.7.161.45:1613 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freenet.de Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1921870 "Dolphin" wrote: > Today a friend of mine asked me if I've heard something about > ecircle-ag cause they were spamming him already for the second > time in a week. Spam from them is not uncommon. They do "listmanagement" for others, but don't care much where the lists come from. Germany's equivalent of Topica. They were, or are still listed on blackholes.wirehub.net, and at the time of the listing a few guys from e-circle appeared here. HH === eCircle allows anybody to sign up any e-mails for their mailing === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net !spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail From: Woodpulp Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Organization: The Lumber Cartel, St Kilda Office References: User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) Message-ID: Lines: 39 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:04:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.246.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1045256654 162.83.246.25 (Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:04:14 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:04:14 EST Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1921827 In article , Dolphin wrote: > Today a friend of mine asked me if I've heard something about ecircle-ag > cause they were spamming him already for the second time in a week. I've > looked on NANA*, and found that they look damn close to what the known > PMG spammers were doing. I don't know 'e-circle.ag', although even with my limited German reading comprehension, the words "e-circle realisiert eMail-Marketing-Kampagnen" on their web page sound ominous enough. I've had dealings with Domeus before, though. As I understand it, Domeus is a bit like Yahoogroups. I encountered 'domeus.fr' when some people I worked with sent out a message in which all the recipients were listed in the 'To:' field. One of the recipients took the addresses off the message and signed them all up to a 'domeus.fr'-managed mailing list promoting their rock band. After the second or third unsolicited mail announcing gig dates for some crappy band from the little town of Bummfucque, France, I punted the lot to abuse at domeus dot fr. They snapped into action and did exactly ... nothing. They didn't do anything the second time I reported it either. I finally decided to go the unsubscribe route, judging that 'domeus.fr' looked outwardly respectable. The unsubscribe worked, and I haven't heard any more from les rockeurs francais. Or 'domeus.fr', for that matter. My impression is that they're a legitimate outfit, but that their abuse department is asleep at the switch, and they allow unconfirmed signups. The latter fact alone would make them a lovely tool for any spammer who wanted to make use of it. Woody -- 'woodpulp' gets its mail from 'myrealbox', which is a commercial site Danger - this animal LARTs === A reply === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net !newsfeed.fjserv.net!out.nntp.be!propagator2-SanJose!in.nntp.be!spin !not-for-mail From: furio ercolessi Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: message from eCircle AG/domeus - Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: 18 Feb 2003 00:31:06 GMT Organization: Spin Internetworking Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <9e8b278f.0302170926.4737484b@posting.google.com> Reply-To: furioun@spin.it NNTP-Posting-Host: photon.spin.it X-Trace: half.spin.it 1045528266 77994 147.123.1.14 (18 Feb 2003 00:31:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@spin.it NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2003 00:31:06 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (FreeBSD) Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1923710 On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:25:33 +0100, Hatto von Hatzfeld wrote: > > In news:de.admin.net-abuse.mail we had in the past several discussions > about eCircle and domeus. For example: Plenty of discussions in it.news.net-abuse too. > My summary: It is positive that they treat all requests and complaints > with much attention and react quite fast. (Well, there are exceptions: > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a3okqb%24npu%241%40news.BelWue.DE) > > Some years ago (domeus did not exist yet) eCircle did not practice > confirmed opt-in; but later they learned that. :-) Same in Italy. In the past they were pretty bad. For instance they had a nasty spammer on board (aminews.it) for more than a year -- they finally nuked them during 2002. Other recent cases were dealt with much faster. > So domeus certainly is not a black hat; but there is some grey shadow > which hopefully will be lighted up in future... This is also my opinion. They seem to be improving, and listening to criticisms. We are not currently blocking them. -- furio ercolessi http://www.spin.it/spam/#eng === eCircle replies === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu !newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: mueller_ecircle@yahoo.de (christian mueller) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: message from eCircle AG/domeus - Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: 17 Feb 2003 09:26:16 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 129 Message-ID: <9e8b278f.0302170926.4737484b@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.67.38.42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1045502776 21390 127.0.0.1 (17 Feb 2003 17:26:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2003 17:26:16 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1923435 Hello, my name is Christian Mueller, Int. Project Manager of eCircle AG. My company is the owner of domeus and I am writing you on behalf of your postings here. I have the impression that there were some misunderstandings how eCircle business model is. From my point of view for a better understanding it is necessary to explain in short the different srevices ecircle offers. eCircle is offering three products: eC-Messenger, an outsourced email marketing application (ASP), V@lueMail, double-opt-in addresses for email list management and brokerage and domeus, a free internet service for list management similar to e.g. Yahoogroups. Most of the complaints you've mentioned resulted from our free service domeus. Nevertheless you have included all our IP's of our two other products and our company-accounts as well, so that we can't deliver emails for our business customers in some cases and this worsens the problem for us. domeus only allows to manage double opt-in email lists, e.g. a moderator can include a subscription box in his homepage where users can subscribe to his list; aftertwards they get an confirmation email, where they either have to reply or click a confirmation link. Our terms of usage include that every registered member of domeus has to receive approx. 6 advertising emails per year in order to finance that free service. The example you mentioned is such a stand alone email campaign. If you look at the complete email you will find a direct-login link to domeus where you can unsubscribe from domeus and afterwards you will never get any email from domeus again - as its mentioned below from one poster in this thread. Also the return-path you mentioned "something-###-###-###@bounce..." is a feature for processing bounces properly and to direct or filter reply-mails in a useful way. I invite you to get in touch with me and our software department for more detailed explanations. In addition I would like to mention that we have a support department for ec-messenger as well as for domeus and that we take spam complaints always very serious (for the software products eC-messenger I´m responsible). Since we are one of Europe's largest email marketing company it is in our very own interest to take complains seriously. I hope my explanations were sufficient for you. If you have further questions don't hesitate to get back to me directly, otherwise I would very much appreciate if you could exclude our IP's from your blocking list. I am looking forward to your feedback. Best regards, Christian Mueller Int. Project Manager ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ eCircle AG Nymphenburger Str.86 80636 Muenchen ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Phone: +49 89/18 95 56 98 Fax: +49/89/18 95 56 79 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ mailto: mueller_ecircle@yahoo.de ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.ecircle-ag.com Dolphin wrote in message news:... > Today a friend of mine asked me if I've heard something about ecircle-ag > cause they were spamming him already for the second time in a week. I've > looked on NANA*, and found that they look damn close to what the known > PMG spammers were doing. The same "something-###-###-###@bounce..." Return- > Path and spammer-reply@some-eCircle.domain Reply-To addresses, the same > huge HTML spams with "uid=/mid=" tracking data in URLs and unsubscribe link > at the bottom. I went a bit through the NANA* history, and can see them > spamming that way at least a half-year ago: > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=no.email-2908021149370001%40slip2.chem.ut oronto.ca > > And their hosts are... Level3-Europe and UUNET-Europe, among others. > > === Spam headers example === > Return-Path: > Received: from aps51.muc.domeus.com (aps51.muc.domeus.com [62.67.54.151]) > by mail.tursiops.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1EGJD420441 > for <###@###.org>; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:19:18 -0700 > Received: from aps51 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by aps51.muc.domeus.com (ecMessenger 2.1) with ESMTP id A6AEEBF6EA > for <###@###.org>; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:18:59 +0100 (MET) > Message-ID: <1902376653.1045239539681.JavaMail.ecm1@aps51> > From: Electronic Arts > Subject: Command & Conquer Generals > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > X-domeus-image-mode: none > X-domeus-mid: 40097258 > X-domeus-cid: 40001373 > Reply-To: eagenerals-hol-reply@lawton.ecircle-ag.com > To: ###@###.org > X-domeus-email: ###@###.org > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:18:59 +0100 (MET) > Status: > > > Advice to block these: > > ecircle-ag.com, ecircle.de, domeus.com, thefound.ch, > [62.67.54.128 - 62.67.54.191], > [62.153.79.224 - 62.153.79.255], > [212.162.50.0 - 212.162.50.63], > [212.185.110.8 - 212.185.110.15], > [213.68.73.224 - 213.68.73.255], > [213.186.38.57]. > > http://www.DolphinWave.org/spam/eCircle.txt > > Dolphin. === People respond - 1 === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.news2me.com !newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west !DIRECTV!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com !not-for-mail From: Tom Betz Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: message from eCircle AG/domeus - Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:31:31 -0000 Organization: Some Message-ID: References: <9e8b278f.0302170926.4737484b@posting.google.com> User-Agent: Xnews/06.01.10 X-Face: #^=oh~^r5AV^#I3^*+(VAGoCzyvK%%w\/HM"[t&a)rHXo#NR3Z\,"/?_htmx~~gG.>v~+.I|P%it\y FS~TxS($@5b8?Rn]z3N]~!6XL9A&2T}I,]-T/8wH~ Ye X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1923439 [posted and mailed] Quoth mueller_ecircle@yahoo.de (christian mueller) in news:9e8b278f.0302170926.4737484b@posting.google.com: > Most of the complaints you've mentioned resulted from our free service > domeus. Nevertheless you have included all our IP's of our two other > products and our company-accounts as well, so that we can't deliver > emails for our business customers in some cases and this worsens the > problem for us. Domeus was a problem for us. Since we blocked SMTP traffic from your IP space, it has ceased to be a problem. > domeus only allows to manage double opt-in email lists, e.g. a > moderator can include a subscription box in his homepage where users > can subscribe to his list; aftertwards they get an confirmation email, > where they either have to reply or click a confirmation link. That is a baldfaced lie. My work address has received many spams from domeus, and I never opted in to any of them, much less confirmed an opt-in. Would you like to try again, and this time to tell the truth? -- | Tom Betz, Generalist | |Want to send me email? FIRST, READ THIS PAGE:| || |YO! MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS HEAVILY SPAM-ARMORED!| === Peolpe respond - 2 === Path: uni-berlin.de!p50851ee3.dip.t-dialin.NET!not-for-mail From: Hatto von Hatzfeld Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: message from eCircle AG/domeus - Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - ano Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:25:33 +0100 Organization: www.donbosco.de Lines: 53 Sender: Hatto von Hatzfeld Message-ID: References: <9e8b278f.030 NNTP-Posting-Host: p50851ee3.dip.t-dialin.net (80.133.30.227) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1045513825 47511021 80.133.30.227 (16 [6009]) X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.10-4GB (i686)) Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1923561 Tom Betz schrieb: > [posted and mailed] > > Quoth mueller_ecircle@yahoo.de (christian mueller) in > news:9e8b278f.0302170926.4737484b@posting.google.com: > >> domeus only allows to manage double opt-in email lists, e.g. a >> moderator can include a subscription box in his homepage where users >> can subscribe to his list; aftertwards they get an confirmation email, >> where they either have to reply or click a confirmation link. > > That is a baldfaced lie. My work address has received many spams from > domeus, and I never opted in to any of them, much less confirmed an > opt-in. > > Would you like to try again, and this time to tell the truth? In news:de.admin.net-abuse.mail we had in the past several discussions about eCircle and domeus. For example: http://groups.google.com/groups?th=fe20d43c033520f7 (2001-09) http://groups.google.com/groups?th=15b74896136629c (2002-02) http://groups.google.com/groups?th=f458bbf6a1878949 (2003-01) My summary: It is positive that they treat all requests and complaints with much attention and react quite fast. (Well, there are exceptions: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a3okqb%24npu%241%40news.BelWue.DE) Some years ago (domeus did not exist yet) eCircle did not practice confirmed opt-in; but later they learned that. :-) Nevertheless it seems that in the past there have been some cases of newsletters which arrived without any subscription. Obviously in some cases the subscriber simply did not remember his subscription any more. In other occasions there are some old mailing lists with a low frequency which still contain unconfirmed addresses. And as far as I have understood, in certain cases the owner of a mailing list wanted to change his former provider for domeus (or ecircle) and prefered not to send a new confirm request to each subscriber - in some cases Domeus believed him, but had been deceived in this person. So domeus certainly is not a black hat; but there is some grey shadow which hopefully will be lighted up in future... Bye, Hatto -- E-Mails sind offen wie Postkarten. Aber nicht mehr mit PGP! E-Mail-Verschlüsselung leicht gemacht: http://www.gnupp.de/ Mein PGP-Schlüssel 0x2504EF40 auf den Keyservern, z.B. über http://wwwkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2504EF40 === My reply === Path: uni-berlin.de!cust-62-219-88-50.cust.bezeqint.NET!not-for-mail From: Dolphin Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: message from eCircle AG/domeus - Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: 18 Feb 2003 01:25:45 GMT Organization: Private person Lines: 47 Sender: Alexander Sheremet Message-ID: References: <9e8b278f.0302170926.4737484b@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cust-62-219-88-50.cust.bezeqint.net (62.219.88.50) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1045531545 49764072 62.219.88.50 (16 [104765]) X-SPEWS: I am not X-newsgroup: news.admin.net-abuse.email X-PGP-key: 0xAAE2A579 X-PGP-key-fingerprint: 5B8E 3B28 7199 8CD3 4133 FA87 000B 0FB6 AAE2 A579 User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1923755 On 17 Feb 2003 09:26:16 -0800 christian mueller wrote in message <9e8b278f.0302170926.4737484b@posting.google.com>: > domeus only allows to manage double opt-in email lists, e.g. a > moderator can include a subscription box in his homepage where users > can subscribe to his list; aftertwards they get an confirmation email, > where they either have to reply or click a confirmation link. > Our terms of usage include that every registered member of domeus has > to receive approx. 6 advertising emails per year in order to finance > that free service. The example you mentioned is such a stand alone > email campaign. If somebody, who I know does not suffer the amnesia or "run around the 'net, sign up for everything" diseases, asks me if I've heard something about you, I am already 99% sure that they did not subscribe with your services. But to make it 100% sure, I will ask that person for the permission to reveal his identity to you, so you will show me the supposed confirmation that you've got from him, allowing you to send him ads (6 in a year, with 2 of them coming withing 11 days from each other?..). But if he refuses, I will still rely upon my 99%, based on reports from other people who also were receiving spam from eCircle. Your company looks just like a well-known "Postmaster General / Mindshare Design" spammers for hire who also were managing lists for other people, but were allowing anybody to put any list of e-mail addresses, and then just "listwashing" for spammers: http://www.DolphinWave.org/spam/postmastergeneral_mindsharedesign.txt > If you look at the complete email you will find a > direct-login link to domeus where you can unsubscribe from domeus and > afterwards you will never get any email from domeus again - as its > mentioned below from one poster in this thread. Absolutely irrelevant. Nobody has to be forced to unsubscribe from any e-mail list that they did not subscribe to, at the first place. Nobody should receive anything but a single confirmation request from your company, if they don't want it, at all. You will not find here such lusers who would like to confirm their e-mail addresses to be 99.999% deliverable and read by a human being: Dolphin. -- URL: http://www.DolphinWave.org Mail: on the web page (no spam) ICQ: 6615461 === Another eCircle's responce === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu !postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: mueller_ecircle@yahoo.de (christian mueller) Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: 17 Feb 2003 09:41:49 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: <9e8b278f.0302170941.7e4857c1@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.67.38.42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1045503709 22614 127.0.0.1 (17 Feb 2003 17:41:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2003 17:41:49 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1923453 Hi Harald, yes, we do "listmanagement" for well know clients like Dt. Telekom, Bertelsmann, T-Mobile, o2, ADAC, Autoscout24 etc. - but also we do consulting in "permission-based marketing-list development" and we do checks with all our clients who want to upload lists. Each client has his own project manager who cares about using the system, upload lists, do sendouts etc. etc. important for me as a project manager: we don`t spam - as you can see in some other comments here, we have most problems with domeus, but in all domeus-standalone mails you can unsubscribe via one link very easily. last but not least: we are removed from wirehub since end of november 2002. also we`re listed in spews.org, but after i joined discussions we got following status: 0, 62.67.54.159, "bienvenue au groupe GENEVA FORUM 2002 : To do business while serving Mankind" (problem reported solved) (http://www.spews.org/html/S703.html) I invite you to get in touch with me for more explanations directly via fone +49-89-189556-98 or via freemail mueller_ecircle@yahoo.de ! Kind regards, Christian Mueller Int. Project Manager, eCircle AG Harald Hein wrote in message news:... > "Dolphin" wrote: > > > Today a friend of mine asked me if I've heard something about > > ecircle-ag cause they were spamming him already for the second > > time in a week. > > Spam from them is not uncommon. They do "listmanagement" for others, > but don't care much where the lists come from. Germany's equivalent of > Topica. They were, or are still listed on blackholes.wirehub.net, and > at the time of the listing a few guys from e-circle appeared here. > > HH === Responces to this post - 1 === Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk !newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!nntp.theplanet.net !inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!195.40.4.120.MISMATCH!easynet-quince!easynet.net !easynet-post1!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email References: <9e8b278f.0302170941.7e4857c1@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:45:07 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3e512e20$0$14804$afc38c87@news.easynet.co.uk> Organization: [posted via Easynet UK] NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.135.252.149 X-Trace: DXC=H1Ze8>3gE=4=GACXLZCR?;5jB=^o7nPW1nelX@LH>DP8W:QXT4nM30: Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1923498 "christian mueller" wrote in message news:9e8b278f.0302170941.7e4857c1@posting.google.com... > Hi Harald, > > important for me as a project manager: we don`t spam - as you can see > in some other comments here, we have most problems with domeus, but in > all domeus-standalone mails you can unsubscribe via one link very > easily. Being able to unsubscribe easily isn't the point. If you are on a list that you didn't sign up to, its spam and the sender belongs in SPEWS, SBL and the other block lists. Unsubscribing is bad because 1) most unsubscribe links merely confirm to the spammer that the mail was received... therefore you get more spam. Lots more. 2) I can't be expected to unsubscribe from every thief who decides to steal my companies bandwidth by getting my company to pay to receive their mailing. To use a spammer's logic, there are 6 billion people on this planet, if just 1% decide to send me an opt out mail my mailserver is going to be a burning crater in the ground whether I opt out or not. Its up to you to put in place a system that makes it IMPOSSIBLE for me to get mailed if I did not signup. Until then your customers will spam and you will be in SPEWS. Get used to i. === My reply === Path: uni-berlin.de!cust-62-219-88-50.cust.bezeqint.NET!not-for-mail From: Dolphin Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Re: message from eCircle AG/domeus - Re: [BLOCK] eCircle / Domeus - another "Postmaster General"? Date: 18 Feb 2003 01:55:25 GMT Organization: Private person Lines: 22 Sender: Alexander Sheremet Message-ID: References: <9e8b278f.0302170941.7e4857c1@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cust-62-219-88-50.cust.bezeqint.net (62.219.88.50) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1045533325 49794316 62.219.88.50 (16 [104765]) X-SPEWS: I am not X-newsgroup: news.admin.net-abuse.email X-PGP-key: 0xAAE2A579 X-PGP-key-fingerprint: 5B8E 3B28 7199 8CD3 4133 FA87 000B 0FB6 AAE2 A579 User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1923771 On 18 Feb 2003 17:41:49 GMT christian mueller wrote in message <9e8b278f.0302170941.7e4857c1@posting.google.com>: > yes, we do "listmanagement" for well know clients like Dt. Telekom, > Bertelsmann, T-Mobile, o2, ADAC, Autoscout24 etc. - but also we do > consulting in "permission-based marketing-list development" and we do > checks with all our clients who want to upload lists. Each client has > his own project manager who cares about using the system, upload > lists, do sendouts etc. etc. Please, explain this: Dolphin. -- URL: http://www.DolphinWave.org Mail: on the web page (no spam) ICQ: 6615461 === Some data on other domains of eCircle (14-Feb-2003) === $ whois ecircle-ag.com [whois.crsnic.net] Whois Server Version 1.3 Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net for detailed information. Domain Name: ECIRCLE-AG.COM Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC. Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com Name Server: NS1.ECIRCLE.DE Name Server: NS2.ECIRCLE.DE Status: ACTIVE Updated Date: 28-dec-2002 Creation Date: 07-aug-2000 Expiration Date: 07-aug-2004 >>> Last update of whois database: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 05:45:40 EST <<< The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .EDU domains and Registrars. <...> Registrant: eCircle AG (ECIRCLE-AG-DOM) Nymphenburgerstr. 86 Munich, Munich 80636 DE Domain Name: ECIRCLE-AG.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact: eCircle AG (R15771-OR) hostmaster@ecircle-ag.com eCircle AG Nymphenburgerstr. 86 Munich, Munich 80636 DE +49 89 12009600 fax: +49 89 12009750 Record expires on 07-Aug-2004. Record created on 07-Aug-2000. Database last updated on 14-Feb-2003 13:16:54 EST. Domain servers in listed order: NS1.ECIRCLE.DE 62.67.54.184 NS2.ECIRCLE.DE 213.68.73.251 $ whois domeus.com [whois.crsnic.net] Whois Server Version 1.3 Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net for detailed information. Domain Name: DOMEUS.COM Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC. Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com Name Server: PROXY.ECIRCLE.DE Name Server: MAILA.ECIRCLE.DE Status: ACTIVE Updated Date: 05-nov-2001 Creation Date: 05-sep-2000 Expiration Date: 05-sep-2003 >>> Last update of whois database: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 05:45:40 EST <<< The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .EDU domains and Registrars. <...> Registrant: eCircle Mutimedia GmbH (DOMEUS-DOM) Nynphenburger strasse 86 Muenchen DE Domain Name: DOMEUS.COM Administrative Contact: RIOYO, ALVARO (ARM443) alriro@yahoo.com RIOYO,ALVARO Gran Via 80, Oficina 711 MADRID, MADRID 28013 ES +34 91 548 76 23 +34 91 548 76 29 Technical Contact: Raithofer, Patrick (PRY83) patrick@PATWEB.DE Pienzenauerstr. 6 Munich 81679 DE +49 89 98 10 39 93 Record expires on 05-Sep-2003. Record created on 05-Sep-2000. Database last updated on 14-Feb-2003 13:20:35 EST. Domain servers in listed order: PROXY.ECIRCLE.DE 212.185.110.10 MAILA.ECIRCLE.DE 62.153.79.232 $whois thefound.ch@whois.nic.ch [whois.nic.ch] whois: This information is subject to an Acceptable Use Policy. See http://www.switch.ch/id/terms/aup.html Domain name: thefound.ch Holder of domain name: Thomas Egli avenue de Chamonix 7 CH-1207 Genève Switzerland Technical contact: Neurom Sàrl Liliane Kunzi Clos du Moulin CH-1404 Cuarny Switzerland Name servers: ns.ovh.net ns3407.ovh.net Date of last registration: 09.04.2002 Date of last modification: 22.11.2002 $ host news.thefound.ch news.thefound.ch has address 62.67.54.184 $ host www.thefound.ch www.thefound.ch has address 213.186.38.57 $ host NS2.ECIRCLE.DE NS2.ECIRCLE.DE has address 213.68.73.251 $ host PROXY.ECIRCLE.DE PROXY.ECIRCLE.DE has address 212.185.110.10 $ host MAILA.ECIRCLE.DE MAILA.ECIRCLE.DE has address 62.153.79.232 $ host www.domeus.com www.domeus.com has address 212.162.50.5 $ dig -t mx ecircle.de ; <<>> DiG 9.2.1 <<>> -t mx ecircle.de ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 15497 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 5, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2 ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;ecircle.de. IN MX ;; ANSWER SECTION: ecircle.de. 86400 IN MX 10 dom03.muc.domeus.com. ecircle.de. 86400 IN MX 10 dom04.muc.domeus.com. ecircle.de. 86400 IN MX 10 dom05.muc.domeus.com. ecircle.de. 86400 IN MX 10 dom01.muc.domeus.com. ecircle.de. 86400 IN MX 10 dom02.muc.domeus.com. ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: ecircle.de. 86400 IN NS auth04.ns.de.uu.net. ecircle.de. 86400 IN NS auth54.ns.de.uu.net. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: auth04.ns.de.uu.net. 42467 IN A 192.76.144.17 auth54.ns.de.uu.net. 42467 IN A 194.128.171.100 ;; Query time: 314 msec ;; SERVER: 192.168.0.77#53(192.168.0.77) ;; WHEN: Fri Feb 14 20:23:42 2003 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 238 === And they still spam === Path: uni-berlin.de!aurora.aptix.com.AR!not-for-mail From: "No Blood for Oil" Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.email Subject: Why isn't this in SPEWS - domeus.es Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 12:26:20 -0300 Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: aurora.aptix.com.ar (200.69.207.129) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1048778782 103225 200.69.207.129 (16 [187215]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Xref: uni-berlin.de news.admin.net-abuse.email:1949057 I think spamcop doesn't feed anything to SPEW.... This spammer is consistently and weekly reported via spamcop and always send their spam via domeus.es. I have their ip blacklisted, but I have an account in a server I don't administer, and receive every 15 days this "newsletter" I didn't ask for. this lasted for at least 1.5 years (and they still try to send it to the servers I administer and where I blocked them) http://spamcop.net/sc?id=z76494130zeeeb9c4ef932ca8fc64ff9ac427be3c6z